Youtube user Chasefire has come up with some excellent footage once again. Here, we see footage as the first or second due ladder company arrives at the scene of a fire in an apartment building. The footage is located on Youtube here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hstF-UH3qg.
The first 1 minute, 30 seconds of video is simply the rig responding to the fire. Trust me that it gets better at the 1:30 mark and the video (and ensuing discussion) will be well worth the wait.
Here are a few questions for discussion. Feel free to copy/paste these questions, and answer them as you see fit as they pertain to your department and/or your observations. If you would like, let us know what the response would be in your department and how many firefighters would be fighting this fire if it occurred in your town.
Engine Operations:
1) Ideally, where would the engine stop at this fire? Why?
2) What type of stretch would you perform (pre-connect, reverse, forward, etc…)? Why?
3) What size & length of attack line would you stretch? Why?
4) Any other comments regarding engine considerations that may arise from the video?
Ladder Company Operations:
1) In your department, who conducts the searches and when?
2) At this fire, where would your members start to search? why?
3) If searching above, and there is a loss of water on the fire floor what may be your second means of egress?
4) Would you or your department ascend to the floor above without the protection of a hose line? Why?
5) Forcible Entry Considerations: What special considerations may arise at a Motel, Hotel or Inn?
6) How would you ventilate this structure? Who is doing it? Where and when?
7) Are there any other comments regarding ladder company considerations that arise from the video?
Remember to keep this discussion a tactical discussion. Brotherhood Instructors, LLC. pride ourselves in running a professional Online Drills area. We are strictly moderated, and comments that simply bash a department’s or firefighter’s tactics (or any responses) will not be allowed and will not be posted. Nate & Andrew will post their answers to the questions above and other discussion points on approximately April 10th. Any and all levels of firefighters are encouraged to post and ask questions.
March 30th, 2009 at 4:20 pm
Nate,
Thanks for posting on the UK site…. very difficult to answer your questions as they do not fit in with UK Tactics… However I’lll run through the fire from a UK point of view
The PDA (Pre deterined attendance) in the UK would have been 2 Pumps (approx 10 Ff’s) if there were reports of someone involved or multiple 999 calls to the fire then the attendance would have been increased to 4 Pumps, a Command Unit and Station Manager (Batt Chief)… in any event as soon as the first pump arrived if he or she didn’t have 4 en-route then he certainly would have sent ‘Make Pumps 4, Persons reported’ (asked for the additional 2 Pumps and send a message that persons were involved).
The Initial pump would have pulled just past the building to allow the 45 or 35ft ground ladders ot be used, the second pump would have pulled just past the property.
The first 2 Ff’s off the 1st Pump would have grabbed a High Pressure Hosereel 200ft on a drum in side locker, water instantly available (50gpm@500psi) , gone under air in BA and made an immediate entry (using gas cooling to negate that flashover before it went and then hit the seat of the fire). That intial entry would have been made within 30 seconds of arrival common with the UK ‘Quick Water’ attack.
The second BA crew from the next Pump would have taken another hosereel to the aparment immediately abopve the fire and made a similar entry where they would have located the victim as she must have bene close to the door.
Meanwhile remaining personnel would set into a street hydrant and lay out a main jet (1 3/4 inch , 125gpm @100psi)
This jet would have been laid to the fron door for wither the initial crew to use to replace the Hosereel or then next BA crew from the 3rd or 4th Pump to take in.
Ventialtion would have taken place as Crews entered the premises…. i.e once Crews had water to the fire based on the 30 second tactic, ventialtion would start in the fir ecompartment and VES would start as soon as the Crew made entry to the floor above with a person involved.
No Ladder CO’s in the UK…. If the road was one that had an Aerial truck on the PDA, that aerial may well have been pitched to the roof to cover or else if it looked like fire was spreading to the roof an aerial may have been requested.
March 30th, 2009 at 6:15 pm
Ah yes, the ever elusive Steve Dudeney comes alive. Thanks for spending some time on our site to explain how the fire may be run in the UK. If anyone has any questions on some of his terms, Steve is also VERY FAMILIAR with US tactics and the similarities/differences therein.
Feel free to ask questions as they arise.
Nate DeMarse
March 30th, 2009 at 6:40 pm
Engine Operations:
1) Ideally, where would the engine stop at this fire? Just passed the structure. Simply put to give the truck position on the front of the structure.
2) What type of stretch would you perform (pre-connect, reverse, forward, etc…)?
Pre-connect off the rear of the pump. off the rear for the easy access to the front of the structure. Ideally stretching down to street to avoid placing in the way of the truck companies access/outriggers.
3) What size & length of attack line would you stretch? Why?
I would pull the 2″ smooth bore attack line of the rear of the pump. This line will provide enough gpm to snuff this fire quite quickly.
4) Any other comments regarding engine considerations that may arise from the video? Rapid water is a must to protect crews searching above the fire.
Ladder Company Operations:
1) In your department, who conducts the searches and when? I am an engine man in house with a truck co, rescue co, medic unit, battalion chief, safety officer and ems supervisor…so I am a bit spoiled. In our first due the rescue does the search and rescue. We are lucky enough that at our first in fire we arrive in a “train” (most often) and things get done quickly. However in our outlying stations the trucks and rescue could be upto 5 minutes out, so the primary search is done by the 2nd in engine or 1st in truck…really depends on the situation though (fire size and location, rate and ease of spread, and structure integrity).
2) At this fire, where would your members start to search? why? In a building with apartments this small the first in nobman would put water on the fire and his men would search the fire apt around him. Rescue would make the apt. above the fire and beside the fire (our rescue company spilts into 2 companies upon arrival: Rescue 1 and Rescue 1A).
3) If searching above, and there is a loss of water on the fire floor what may be your second means of egress? If oure egress was cut off I would check the rear of the apartment if no egress I would breach through to the apartment on the right.
4) Would you or your department ascend to the floor above without the protection of a hose line? Yes. The engine men know thier jobs (or should) and given the size of this building it isnt going to take alot of water to extingish this fire…or at the very least to keep it in check.
5) Forcible Entry Considerations: What special considerations may arise at a Motel, Hotel or Inn? Effective and efficient forcable entry is required. The possibility of forcing multiple doors is a reality. Smooth and Fast work is a must.
6) How would you ventilate this structure? Who is doing it? Truck companies do the vent work. Vent work must be done in cordination with the interior attack crews. In this situation the windows are you best option.
7) Are there any other comments regarding ladder company considerations that arise from the video? Proper placement of ground ladders. As you can see the initial placement of the ground ladder is in an location that could make it difficult to access in a hostile fire event. Its easy to arm chair quarter back and thats not my intention but amist all the smoke and distractions on the fireground its easy to place a ladder in an inaccessable location. place the ladders as if your life depends on;)
March 31st, 2009 at 1:52 am
Brother Roark, I’m proud of you. You’ve come so far. I don’t have much to add, but from a two engine, two ambulance department, this is what would most likely come about:
1) Ideally, where would the engine stop at this fire? Past the front door and down another engine length. Why? Leave room for the stick. Looks like it may be needed above the fire apartment.
2) What type of stretch would you perform? Fwd Dry, Ambulance crew hooks the engine up at the plug then moves forward for manpower. In our two houses the first due ambulance takes the hydrant for the first in engine.
3) What size & length of attack line would you stretch? First attack line would be our standard 1 3/4″ attack line off the transverse bed above the pump or out of the hosebed on our newer pumper. Why? The stretch is short, possible rescue over the fire compartment, need to hit it fast. Another similar line to the front door for back up and consider a 150′ working line to the front with a wye and hose packs for extending up to the 2nd and 3rd floors.
4) Any other comments regarding engine considerations that may arise from the video? Agree with Roark. Can’t be taking so much time getting water on the fire. And don’t open the door to the fire compartment and flood it with air if you’re not going to hit it right then and there.
Ladder Company Operations:
1) In your department, who conducts the searches and when? We do the small town truck thing, and regardless of which rig arrives second, its going to be doing the search unless its clear that there is a viable victim. But even then, prevailing theory is to protect victims by hitting the fire.
2) At this fire, where would your members start to search? Second floor, above the fire compartment. why? Those folks are running out of time.
3) If searching above, and there is a loss of water on the fire floor what may be your second means of egress?
Before entering I would have planned on the rear side for escape and if it was not an option, I’d start mining through to the neighboring apartment.
4) Would you or your department ascend to the floor above without the protection of a hose line? Not likely, (unless we were aware of immediate life threat) although I would stop it at the base of the stair or at the top depending on the appearance of progress in the fire compartment. Why? I don’t believe in crowding a search with the hoseline, but am not given the option by department procedure, so orientated search with the hoseline watching our back seems to keep the over cautious off my back.
5) Forcible Entry Considerations: What special considerations may arise at a Motel, Hotel or Inn?
Interior hallways and interior slide locks are common here as well as the typical electric card lock. Access may be easier through side windows or sometimes the adjacent apartment. One motel in our first due is made of several tractor trailers layed out in a wheel spoke formation, with an enclosed hall in between each trailer. The exterior metal siding shows in the hallway.
6) How would you ventilate this structure? Horizontal. Who is doing it? Second due, but guided by the first in attack line. Where and when? Vent the opposite side after locating the fire. Without a window in the back, this may not work. PPV would have little or detrimental effect in such a case.
7) Are there any other comments regarding ladder company considerations that arise from the video? Laddering those thin metal railings is never fun, if possible tie the tip off or move it to a supporting corner or column. Its hard to determine from the camera angle, but I would have asked to have the stick up to the floors above the fire. We operate an 80′ Quint and will be taking on a new 75′er in the near future so I think there would be room to maneuver here. Thanks for the opportunity to exercise the brain!
March 31st, 2009 at 3:03 am
Looked again, sorry for the typo’s it was late (UK time) when I posted it… big fat fingers on a small keyboard…
Steve:-)
March 31st, 2009 at 12:05 pm
well,interesting video and i will add my point of view of a french civilian:
for the engine co operations,as i’m not firefighter and i do not know anything about hoses and length,i just noticed that there were like little “packs” of hoses everywhere at firescene:maybe a friction loss is possible?correct me if you think,i’m totally wrong,np.
now something was scary:this smoke:intense,one moment,i thought that it could have a flashover.
the guys did their job:rescued the victim.
the ventilation part,as it is a public building:motel or hotel,it could have many materials which can burn rapidly or can be rapidly ignited and so dangerous for firefighters at firescene.PPV is always a difficult tactic to use.
well,that is enough comments from me for this time.you can correct my post,no problem.
frenchie will not cry,lol.take care.i’m on the site to learn.thanks for this site and the knowledges.
March 31st, 2009 at 9:44 pm
Our response on the still alarm would be: 3 engines, 1 truck, 2 ambulances (firefighter/paramedics) and a Batt Chief. Arrival of the still engine with smoke showing would add a second truck, a third ambulance and another Batt Chief. The second truck and third ambulance would join-up as the RIT/RIC.
Engine Operations:
1) Ideally, where would the engine stop at this fire? Why? Everyone seems to get the past the building part ( or stop short)…but how far pastor short? My rule is far enough that the still truck can set-up on the A/B corner, the A/D corner and everywhere in between. That means at least 75’ past. This allows the truck or tower to spot the turntable so that it can get two sides and the engine and/or truck can get their ladders moving. Upon arrival, the still engine would give a brief initial report and announce their direction. The direction cues the first due truck and second engine into how they should approach the scene and from what direction. We like to leave the front and approach to the front open for the still truck and additional trucks, especially on narrow and one-way streets in the old sections of the city.
2) What type of stretch would you perform (pre-connect, reverse, forward, etc…)? Why? We would pull a skid load off the rear. A 3” line with a wye and 150’ of 2”. The 2” line Is set-up to flow 160 gpm; however, we can spin-off the tip and boost the pressure for 250gpm if needed. 160 should do for this based on the required flow for the area involved. The still engine engineer would seek his own hydrant and the second engine would go around the block and back into the still engine. They would drop a supply line for the still engine if the hydrant was some distance.
3) What size & length of attack line would you stretch? Why? See above. The skid allows us to quickly add a second line and we can make sure that we have enough line. Don’t like to become dependant on the preconnect.
4) Any other comments regarding engine considerations that may arise from the video? Would have like to see the screen door removed. It keeps getting in the way. Control the occupancy door and remove the screen door. I don’t think they vented too soon, it appears that it self-vented.
Ladder Company Operations:
1) In your department, who conducts the searches and when? The still truck company and the second arriving ambulance. They join-up to provide 5 or 6 members to perform initial truck functions including search, ventilation, ladders and get to the rear.
2) At this fire, where would your members start to search? why? They would join the engine and search the unit as the attack begins while the outside team would get to the B side and rear to vent. Those in the most peril are in the unit and we don’t know, but it is possible that an occupant/s are in bedrooms and are still viable. A likely candidate for a VES operation. The floor above would be the next priority. All that said, we need to put water on the fire ASAP.
3) If searching above, and there is a loss of water on the fire floor what may be your second means of egress? On the end units, there are likely side windows. In the center units, the only other exit would be in the rear. There may be a rear entry/exit on these units depending on their size. Can’t tell from the video.
4) Would you or your department ascend to the floor above without the protection of a hose line? Why? Yes. Aggressive interior primary searches are the only way to determine if there are occupants and therefore, lives to be saved. Waiting for a hose line to the second floor will add an unacceptable time delay, further lessening any occupants chance to survive.
5) Forcible Entry Considerations: What special considerations may arise at a Motel, Hotel or Inn? These occupancies will likely have rated door assemblies and perhaps magnetic lock assemblies. We should be able to handle these with conventional FE techniques.
6) How would you ventilate this structure? Who is doing it? Where and when? Horizontal, coordinated with the attack team. The still truck would provide that along with an assessment of possible VES for rear bedrooms in the fire occupancy.
7) Are there any other comments regarding ladder company considerations that arise from the video? Ladder placement…… can’t tell, but I’d want ladders to the B and C sides. The 24’ in the front could have been placed a little better so that it was usable.
Thanks, good exercise.
Art
April 1st, 2009 at 10:26 am
We don’t get a great view of the whole scene, the street layout etc. Having said that:
1) Roll past the fire apt. - leave enough room for the ladder to position at either corner.
2) Generally the 1st due would start an immediate attack using booster tank; The truck is 2nd due followed immediately by the second engine. 2nd engine would stop at hydrant, hit it, and lay LDH in to 1st due.
3) 1 3/4″ 200ft preconnect, smoothbore. Small apartment, fast attack.
4) None that occur to me - seemed to take a little time to get water on the fire; that fire needs water fast. When they did get water they got a good knock on it.
Ladder Company Operations:
1) Whoever the IC gives the task to; we’re a combination department - the 3 career staff on duty get the rigs to the scene, and we respond POV to the scene. So who does what depends on who responds and the order they arrive in. We do NOT run in companies; every FF does every fireground task, totally interchangeably. It would be ‘you, you and you - primary search!’.
2) Exactly what the guys did; start with the apartment above the fire. The fire apartment appeared well-involved on arrival, at least at the front. VES on the 1st floor rear would be a possibility.
3) I didn’t see what was on the B-side - similar attached? If so, C-side ground ladder, fire escape, or bailout, or a wall breach.
4) Yes. Heavy fire conditions in the apartment below; the only chance for any occupants upstairs is an aggressive primary search. That said, if the manpower is available, I can’t think of a good reason not to stretch an uncharged line to the second floor alongside the search team. That gives the options of search, attack, or both, as conditions warrant.
5) Possibly electronic / central locks; getting control of such a system would obviously be an advantage if it exists.
6) Appears to have self-vented out the front. Otherwise, standard horizontal vent coordinated with attack. I *really* want to know what the C-side looks like.
7) They threw a ground ladder… fine, but it’s duplicating the existing exterior stair. Would be more useful thrown at the extreme right end of the 2nd floor landing.
April 3rd, 2009 at 8:14 am
Quoted by Art Zern:
“2) What type of stretch would you perform (pre-connect, reverse, forward, etc…)? Why? We would pull a skid load off the rear. A 3” line with a wye and 150’ of 2”. The 2” line Is set-up to flow 160 gpm; however, we can spin-off the tip and boost the pressure for 250gpm if needed. 160 should do for this based on the required flow for the area involved. The still engine engineer would seek his own hydrant and the second engine would go around the block and back into the still engine. They would drop a supply line for the still engine if the hydrant was some distance.”
I just wanted to comment that I profoundly disagree with this method of attack IF your department has the capability of laying a preconnect. It is undetermined if there were reports indicating that people were possibly trapped, but as is obvious, that was the case and is the method under which we should operate until searches prove negative.
Your suggested method of laying out more than you need, you yourself surmised that 160 GPM would be sufficient and I doubt that it would take that, would only cause a significant delay in getting water on the fire and therefore make every other phase of the incident that much more difficult or dangerous.
Big water is GREAT when you need it, but don’t drop it on the fireground just because.
Also, keep in mind that you are making the call for the attack line based on the conditions when you arrive. In the beginning stages of this video, I was having a difficlut time even seeing a significant smoke condition, yet alone a reason to be “laying out.” Perhaps you made your call based on conditions closer to the end of the video. Even with those conditions however, I would have still use a preconnect. That call would be justified as you can see that the single 1 3/4″ line in the video quickly puts a knock on the fire.
Pertaining to this, the only other thing that comes to mind from the video is ensuring the knowledge and efficiency of pump operators and utilizing a hose load or stretch that eliminates kinks in the line.
Lt. Robert Kramer
Engine Co. 34-A
Memphis Fire Department
April 5th, 2009 at 4:51 pm
Robert,
I appreciate your opinion and don’t disagree. Perhaps some background would help explain why the skid is our standard stretch. Our situation is unique based on my City being severely impacted by rail traffic with three major rail lines intersecting and over 35 grade level crossings causing significant train delays. There is always a good chance that the second companies will be delayed. Our companies are train delayed on a daily basis. The pre-connect could be an option based on the location in our City and if the still engine had to lead-out to the hydrant because the second engine was held-up at a train crossing.
Our pre-connects are also 1 3/4″ lines with the same flow as described (160-250). I didn’t suggest the 250 gpm, our standard flow is 160 gpm and that can be increased if necessary. Your suggestion that pulling a skid off the rear would cause a “significant”delay is unfounded. That is our standard attack line and I assure you that there is no delay in getting water. The skid allows us to ensure that both adequate hose and flow is available and gives us the ability to lead-out to a hydrant when the second engine is delayed.
Again Robert, I don’t disagree with your position; however, in our case we will pull of the rear most of the time. If we didn’t have the very real possibility of train delays, the relative speed afforded the pre-connect would be a great choice.
Thanks for your input,
Art
April 6th, 2009 at 10:19 pm
Robert,
I unfortunately have to respectfully disagree on your decision not to lay-in or layout, however you want to do it. Why would you not want to establish or make attempts to establish your own water supply for the report of any working or possible working fire. Is it really that much work to pick up several hundred feet of supply line. By laying in our out we allow ourselves a safety margin. We prepare for the worst. Whose to say that the small fire that is visible on arrival is just the tip of the iceburg? What if it started in the basement, or the rear and spread to the front? Now we are in front of the building with our 500 or 750 gallons of water and no difinitive water supply, and a large volume of fire all because we didn’t lay in. What if the pump on your engine fails, and we are on a dead end street, 500ft from the intersection with the Truck behind us? Now instead of having the second engine pump through us we have to scramble to try to advance a second line from a pumper 500 ft away. These are all worst case scenarios, I know, but my point is why would you not want to be prepared for when these things happen?
Art,
Maybe I am misunderstanding you and after reading your post again I think I am but maybe you could clarify it for me. Why would you want to operate a 2 inch hand line with only 160 gpm? I can get that gpm out of my fog nozzle with the pump at idle. Why would I want to subject my crew to a harder workload when I can easily get 180-220gpm out of my 13/4 line? Once again maybe you could just clarify.
As for the rest I would position my engine either short or past the strucutre, depending on the trucks travel. I would lay in and pull a preconnected handline, 200ft for the first due, 300ft for the second, preconnected only because that is how we do it. Static, lay in or out, it doesnt’ really matter as long as the line gets to the right place. The right place in this case is the front enterance to the fire apartment so we can protect the occupants means of egress and in this case most likely limit the spread of fire to the neighboring apartments. An 1 3/4 hand line flowing 150-180gpm should be capable of handleing the fire that is present in the structure. If there was any doubt, the back up line could be a 2 1/2 flowing 260-300gpm and then we would have it all covered. As for the rest of the engine work, I think they did well, water was established and a very quick hit was put on the fire.
I won’t get into too much of the Truck stuff, as I have been out of it for a while. But the search has to start at the neighboring apartment, and then immediately to the floor above, unless there is the report of people trapped in a specific place. My secondary means of egress would either be a ladder on the balcony opposite the fire, or when noticing the open stairs, I would make attempts to have ladders on side B of the structure for my egress. Of course you have to take your safety into consideration when deciding whether to search above without a handline, noticing the open stairs and the chance for fire spread or impingment is something you have to take into account, but with the report of people trapped, it must be attempted. You also have to consider searching the fire apartment, however with the fire directly inside the front door this will most likely be done as the line is advanced. This could also be accomplished by the second truck entering from the rear, while the intial handline is being stretched, only with coordination of course. Ventilation in a structure like this and a first floor fire has to be horizontal, we will not accomplish anything by vertically ventilating the structure.
I guess I got into a little more than I thought. Thanks for the chance to learn, sorry for the mispellings if any.
April 7th, 2009 at 10:31 pm
Win,
Our 1 3/4″ line is actually closer to 2″, so that is what we call that line. The flow can be adjusted to match the required flow based on the area involved. This is our standard set-up for the 1 3/4″ (2″) line:
7/8” tip @50 psi = 160 GPM
7/8” tip @ 75 PSI = 200 GPM
1-1/8” tip @ 50 PSI = 250 GPM
We also have a 2 1/2″ at our disposal if the required flow is greater than 250 GPM:
1 1/8″ tip @ 50psi = 250 GPM
1 1/8″ tip @ 75 psi = 300 GPM
1 1/4″ tip @ 50 psi = 300 GPM
1 1/4″ tip @ 75 psi = 400 GPM
I believe, based on your statement “An 1 3/4″hand line flowing 150-180gpm should be capable of handleing the fire that is present in the structure” that we are in agreement. Our hose beds are set-up to allow the officer several options when selecting the hose-line and determinine the required flow based on the occupancy, building construction, area involved, length of stretch etc.
Hope this helps to clarify, thanks for your comments.
Keep The Faith,
Art
April 8th, 2009 at 8:25 pm
Art,
Thanks for the reply, now it all makes sense to me. Our numbers here are very similar to yours. We are running, a break-apart 50 psi fog to a 15/16th solid bore tip on our nozzles, flowing right around 170 and 190gpm respectively at a discharge pressure of 120psi. Our 2 1/2 with the 1 1/8th is flowing 280 at 75psi discharge pressure.
Thanks again for the clairfication,
Win
April 11th, 2009 at 12:59 pm
Just to set the scene this is a quick break-down of our Department, 850 000 population, 20 stations, 650 full time carrer firefighters, 30 front line apparatus, 16 pumpers, 8 aerials, 6 squads.
Engine Operations:
1) Ideally, where would the engine stop at this fire? Why?
First in pumper will most likely be as close to the front of the building while leaving room for the first in aerial truck. We do not really have a policy on truck placement BUT WE SHOULD! The first in officer and his driver will take discisions as they see fit.
2) What type of stretch would you perform (pre-connect, reverse, forward, etc…)? Why?
We would stretch a pre-connect, all our vehicles have 2 1 3/4″, and 1 2 1/2″ preconnects. Given the type of building construction and layouts we face the 200′ 1 3/4″ works very well for us, we get water on fires very quickly with limited manpower on the lines, which gives us quick knock downs. We are lucky that response times are very quick.
3) What size & length of attack line would you stretch? Why?
200′, 1 3/4″ high flow low pressure. This is what we have on all vehicles including the aerials (quints), and squads.
We use Akron mid range nozzles which have been excellent, they are are a nice compremise between the straight tip and combination debates.
4) Any other comments regarding engine considerations that may arise from the video?
Ladder Company Operations:
1) In your department, who conducts the searches and when?
Since all vehicles carry hoses and water we do not really have engine, and truck companies. Searches are conducted by any crew as they are assigned by command. All crews have TIC’s and tools required to conduct searches and forcible entry. It is an on going debate if we should operate with sepcific company assigments.
2) At this fire, where would your members start to search? why?
Fire sector (first in pumper)would taken care of the fire unit, searching as they go. The second in would have most likely taken care of the unit above the fire as rescue sector or second floor sector. We try and have all crews in a situation like this one to have a hose line with them while they search.
3) If searching above, and there is a loss of water on the fire floor what may be your second means of egress?
We can’t see the entire layout however ladders (either hand or aerial ladders) should have been placed to provide a few different options for the crews operating above the fire.
4) Would you or your department ascend to the floor above without the protection of a hose line? Why?
We generally would not operat above the fire without a hoseline. We have pre-connect hoses and water on all vehicles which makes it fairly easy to get them in operation.
5) Forcible Entry Considerations: What special considerations may arise at a Motel, Hotel or Inn?
Possibilty of having multiple units that may need forcible entry to gain acces to conduct searches. All crews are trained, however in a more complex siuation like this one the job would most likely go to one of the squads that have more tools and skills for this.
6) How would you ventilate this structure? Who is doing it? Where and when?
Can’t really say given that we don’t have a full view of the layout, although it sure looks like the fire unit is venting rather well.
7) Are there any other comments regarding ladder company considerations that arise from the video?
This is a great example how quickly we could run out of resources, and the importance of adequate staffing levels. A 4 man minimum truck company at this call could do wonders!
May 29th, 2009 at 1:32 pm
In our FD we are a 2 station FD(one on each end of town, 1 truck & rescue in 1 station with 1 engine on the opposite side of town) with 4 surrounding mutual aid FD’s. Our 1st alarm brings 2-Trucks (Ours staffed with 4 & other staffed with 3 on a good day)& 2 engines(staffed with 3 & 2) We operate under a general SOG but all involved operate with different functional details and experience levels.
Our 2 man rescue operates as an outside Truck/Rescue crew on all fires within our district.
Engine Operations:
1) Ideally, where would the engine stop at this fire? past occupancy
Why? room for the ladder
2) What type of stretch would you perform (pre-connect Our pre-connects are 200ft S/B & Fog giving 200 GPM with room to spare(Low pressure pon conquest hose with Chief Low pressure 50-150 nozzles=product plug)
Why? We can provide up to 250 GPM plus if needed
3) What size & length of attack line would you stretch? 1 3/4
Why? see above
4) Any other comments regarding engine considerations that may arise from the video?
Could use to get water established quicker(ready) before venting
Ladder Company Operations:
1) In your department, who conducts the searches and when?
If 1st due with confirmed entrapment 1st due does the grab while the Engineer preps the line for the next due to advance on the fire. If it is in OUR city limits we have a 2 man rescue that will effect immediate search & rescue efforts if reported entrapment
2) At this fire, where would your members start to search? Upstairs
why? If directed by by-standers of possible entrapment, if no entrapment the 2nd due would search while 1st due attacks fire(unless the rescue is available, then they do the search)
3) If searching above, and there is a loss of water on the fire floor what may be your second means of egress? Back of residence window or porch? or take cover on the right side of 2nd floor away from the body of fire
4) Would you or your department ascend to the floor above without the protection of a hose line? Yes
Why? We take large risk for large gain. If no entrapment we would probably wait( C.O. discretion)
5) Forcible Entry Considerations: What special considerations may arise at a Motel, Hotel or Inn? Fortified door, more so than residential. Metal door encasement. Irons & a sledge(maul for you yanks) should do the trick
6) How would you ventilate this structure? Horizontal, taking windows, use the fan(engineer sets up at the door OFF) when fire is confirmed knock down
Who is doing it? On this one, attack crew as you go
Where and when? Front of the residence or nearest the main body of fire before entry 1st( our rescue does outside truck functions when available otherwise the C.O. does a 360 and vents if necessary). after a knock on the fire, open some windows and fire up the fan
7) Are there any other comments regarding ladder company considerations that arise from the video?
It looks like a great aggresive job by the Truck crew. BIG reward resulted from the BIG risk GREAT VIDEO THANKS!